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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1971-09-21 Town Council MinutesMINUTES REGULAR MEETING LOCAL LIQUOR LICENSING AUTHORITY/BOARD CF TRUSTEES SEPTEMBER 2 1, 19 7 1 A regular meeting of the Board of Trustees acting as the Local Liquor Licensing Authority was held, pursuant to call and notice at the hour of 7;30 p.m. Tuesday, the 21st day of September 1971, at the Vail Elementary School (above the Vail Clinic) in Vail, Colorado. The following members of the Local Liquor Licensing Authority for the Town of Vail, constituting a quorum, were present: Mayor John Dobson, Chairman Tod Anderson Gerry White Dr. Thomas Steinberg Clayton Freeman John Donovan Also present were: Terrell J. Minger, Town Manager and Town Clerk Larry Robinson, Town Attorney BOARD CONVENED AS THE LOCAL LIQUOR LICENSING AUTHORITY Mayor Dobson called the meeting to order. The Local Liquor Licensing Authority met to consider the application of K & R Casino, Inc., a Colorado corporation, whose officers are Julia D. Kaemmer, president and treasurer and William L. Hanlon, vice president and secretary - manager. The mayor asked the town clerk if all required information and fees had been supplied and paid by the applicant. Terry Minger, Town Clerk, answered yes. The mayor then asked the town attorney if he had reviewed the application and if it was properly filled out in compliance with the Colorado Statutes. Larry Robinson, town attorney, answered yes. The mayor passed around the application for review of the Board and asked if there were any questions. There were no ques- tions concerning the application at this time. Robinson then stated that his report from the chief of police indicated that the applicants and premises involved were of good standing. When asked if any peti- tions or letters had been received, Stewart Brown, acting as counsel for the applicant did hold some petitions in favor of granting this license; and John Ferguson, counsel for the protestants had petitions which were against the granting of the license. They were asked t o withhold these petitions until time of testimony. Mr. Brown asked if the protestants' petitions would be verified by the persons cir- culating them and questioned the four petitions. Robinson said we could rule on the petitions at this time. Ferguson was asked who he was representing, and he replied that he was representing Gasthof Gramshammer, the Nu Gnu, the Lancelot, LaCave, the Ore House, the Left Bank, Bobby Mac's, the St. Moritz, and the Lord Gore. The mayor then stated that the purpose of the hearing was to comply with the requirements of C.R.S. 1963, 75-2-42 (2) and read those requirements, after which he declared the hearing open. He asked if there were any parties present for or against granting the license. The following persons, in favor of granting this license stood and were sworn in by Minger: William Hanlon, Nona Wilke, David Gorsuch, Mike Dawson, George Knox, Jr. , and Warren Klug. The following persons, opposed to the granting of this license, stood and were sworn in by Minger: Pepi Gramshammer, Harry Franzgen, and Robert McClure, Mayor Dobson asked Stewart Brown to proceed with his case. He asked that the statistical data from the hearing of August 23, 1971, be ad- mitted into evidence. Asked if there were any objections, Mr. Ferguson replied that the Town survey done by THK and Associates in Denver was different and probably updated. He stated that this exhibit should be introduced subject to question. Stewart Brown called Dave Gorsuch to the stand and asked him to state his full name and address. Brown asked him what his occupation in Vail is. He answered that he is a shop owner and has been in Vail six years. When asked if he was familiar with the Casino Building and the plans for the facility, Gorsuch answered yes, that he understood their plans were to have adult -type entertainment, as opposed to rock 'n roll, with a supper club atmosphere, with floor shows, etc. He further stated that he didn't think the noise factor would be so great as it is now. Brown asked him ifit has been adult entertainment in past years, to which he answered yes. He also answered that he felt there was a need for this type of facility, and is aware of it because people have told him in his shop that it would be nice to have a quiet place to go to and would be interested in Broadway revues etc. Gorsuch also stated that John Kaemmer's track record shows quality. Brown asked Gorsuch if the premises produces revue -type shows and music of a quieter type, would this serve a need presently unmet in the Town of Vail? Gorsuch an- swered yes, there is a need , as there is no such facility in Town. Brown asked if the need extended to any particular segment of the people here. Gorsuch answered that need is for the older people in Town. Stewart Brown had no further questions. Mayor Dobson asked if anyone else had questions, and John Ferguson said he would like to cross-examine this witness. Ferguson asked Gorsuch if the noise factor were as great as it is now, would he still be interested in granting this license? He said yes. Ferguson then asked him if any efforts had been made toward adult -type entertainment, to which Gorsuch answered yes, that the Casino had tried it but it did not work out. Also, that the Golden Ski had that kind of entertainment, but he didn't know how long it stayed open. Ferguson had no further questions. Mayor Dobson then asked if Stewart Brown would address himself to the Board and t e 11 them what K & R Casino was actually planning t o do, at which time Brown introduced B i 11 Hanlon. After stating his name and address, Hanlon was asked by Brown what his duties would be as manager of K & R Casino. He said he would be the manager of Casino and director of entertainment; he would oversee the employees, hire bands for enter- tainment and be responsible for the operation. Hanlon was then asked to outline his experience. He stated that he had previously managed the Nu Gnu and had obtained a degree in business administration. He has been associated with the Clock Tower for the last three years as supervisor of the employees, the maitre dt there in charge of the food and bar operation etc. He was asked to describe the Nu Gnu opera- tion as it existed when he was manager. He answered that it was then serving food, had a three-way liquor license, and had a combination of all types of entertainment. He described the Clock Tower as a food operation with lounge, serving dinners and having after ski entertain- ment. He was asked if he had examined the premises and he answered yes, that he had and he was familiar with it. He said it was built in 1964 as a night club with 5,000 square feet; it has a full kitchen, full facilities for a bar, and a full stage with sound equipment, plus a large dance floor. Brown asked him if Casino Vail contained more than one level, and he answered it is on the second floor with bal- conies on the third. Brown asked if the entire second floor was given over to the night club and Hanlon answered yes. Brown then asked if there were any facility of this type that was this big, and he said no, the seating capacity is 375. Brown asked if there were any facility of equal size in Vail, and Hanlon replied no, not of this size. Hanlon was asked if it contained a movie screen and he said yes. Brown asked if there were any other place that contains a movie screen, and Hanlon answered, no, not of this size. Brown asked where it is located, and Hanlon said on the corner of Bridge Street and Gore Creek Drive, at the main intersection of Town. When Brown asked Hanlon what his plans would be ifhe was granted a three-way license, he answered that he would have adult -type entertainment -- show groups. He named the Country Coalition W Five and the Kingston Trio. Brown then asked whether their budget would permit him to easily support this type of entertainment, to which Ferguson objected. Brown reworded his question to ask what his weekly entertainment budget would be and Hanlon answered between $1200 and $2500. His hours of operation w i 11 be from 8:30 p.m. to 1:30 a.m.; and his menu will include a steak sandwich for $3.95, cornish game hen, etc., but the prices would run to $4.95 and a little higher and would be a generalized menu rather than a specialized. Brown asked if there would be a cover charge and Hanlon answered yes, and that there would be a season pass available to local people. There would be a continuing program of dance music of adult -type. When asked what he meant by adult, Hanlon answered over 25. Stewart Brown asked him why he con- sidered it a good move to abandon the 3.2 beer license in favor of a three-way liquor license, and Hanlon replied that he felt that the needs of the neighborhood would be better satisfied. Brown then asked if last year's operation proved disappointing and Hanlon said that the corporation was not disappointed. Hanlon was asked if he had been in touch with persons representing groups in connection with his proposed plans, and he said yes, he has been, and also has been approached by groups of potential customers who want to use the facilities if it would have a three-way license; among them were the Vail Resort Association, the Ski Club Vail, and many others; including the largest ski club in the world. Brown asked him who he would be serving, and Hanlon answered the Gore Valley; its inhabitants and its visitors. He was asked if he were aware of the noise problem, • and his answer was yes. To the question of how this problem can be alleviated, Hanlon answered that the decibel factor of the enter- tainment would be lower and the installation of a system bringing air back in rather than taking it out would also help. He has also consulted with an engineer on this. Brown asked if Hanlon knew John Kaenuner and whether the K 8 R Casino planned to avail themselves of his talents in any way, to which Hanlon answered yes, as an ad- visor. Brown had no further questions. When Mayor Dobson asked the Board if they had any questions, Trustee Tod Anderson asked Hanlon to explain adult entertainment -- would it be live entertainment or recordings? Hanlon answered mostly live entertainment with re- cordings in between. He was then asked if the Casino would operate in the summer, and his reply was yes. Hanlon was asked if he didn't receive a three-way license, would he run it on a 3.2 beer license, and he replied yes, it would be similar to last year's operation, which was geared to the 18-21 age group. John Ferguson then asked that the survey produced by THK and Associates from Denver be introduced as evidence. Stewart Brown felt that the study requires verification and is not competent evidence. Ferguson felt it should be admissable and that the LLLA should support it. Mayor Dobson stated that we would weigh its veracity and conclusions and Brown said that he makes exception to the ruling; that the survey has not risen to evidential value. Ferguson then began to cross-ex- amine the witness, B i 11 Hanlon. He asked him ifhe had any interest in the ownership, and he said he had a management contract with the corporation, with option, and that the only stockholder is Julia Kaemmer. When asked who the directors of the corporation were, Hanlon answered Steve Ruder and one of his brothers. Ferguson then asked if John Kaemmer had any interest in this facility. Hanlon an- swered no, that he was just an advisor. Ferguson asked him if he was aware of the cost to have the Kingston Trio. Hanlon answered yes. He was then asked if he would serve dinner. His reply was yes. Then he was asked what capacity he would have to meet to balance his budget. Hanlon answered 4500 per week with the average being $9 per person. When asked if he felt restaurant seats were needed or this type of facility, Hanlon answered this type of entertainment. Ferguson then asked what they would do if they found they could not afford this kind of entertainment, to which Stewart Brown objected. He stated that the LLLA was concerned with financial statements of the individuals, but not with the economic feasibility of a business. • Ferguson then said that the license was being applied for under a very appealing need, and he felt there should be some assurance that it should be retained as this type of facility. Ferguson asked if any previous license was three-way, and the answer was yes, and it had changed hands once. K 4 R acquired the facility then applied for a 3.2 beer license and obtained it, which at that time seemed to better serve the needs; at least the previous manager, Mr. Ruder, felt that way. Ferguson asked why Hanlon felt that the needs had changed. Hanlon answered that there was definitely a need for adult - type entertainment; the skier days had increased; the facility was now inadequate to serve the needs of the people; and groups had re- quested that the Casino have a three-way liquor license. Ferguson then asked if Hanlon was aware of the noise factor, to which he said yes; and when asked if he would be willing to give some assurance to the Trustees that it would be controlled, he answered that they would make every effort to stop offensive noise and again mentioned that he has been consulting with an engineer who is working on the noise factor. Ferguson had no further questions, at which time Brown introduced the petitions for the granting of this liquor license, marked into evidence as Exhibit A. Ferguson asked if all the sig- natures were obtained by Hanlon himself, and he answered no, but under his supervision. Ferguson also asked if Hanlon had told the people about his plans for the Casino before they signed and Hanlon said yes. As there were no further questions for Mr. Hanlon, Ted Kindel was brought forth as a witness for the applicant and sworn in by Minger. After stating his name and address, Kindel said he had lived in Vail for the last eight and a half years, during which time he watched it grow from nothing to its present stage, including the increase in several liquor licenses. Stewart Brown asked him if he thought the plans for the operation of Casino Vail would serve the needs of the community and if so, why. He answered that he felt that the operation as described would fill a very definite need because there is no facility now for that type of entertainment. He was asked if he knew of people who want such a facility, and he answered yes, that Vail is lacking something without such a facility. As Brown had no more questions, Gunthler Hofler asked why they would open at 8:30 p.m. when the main dinner hour was earlier and was an- swered that this is where the need lies. Kindel was further asked if the W Five was noisy, to which he replied that it wouldn't have to be if it weren't amplified. After a few questions by John Fer- guson, Brown called four witnesses at one time: Mike Dawson, George Knox, Jr., Nona Wilke and Warren Klug; Mike Dawson at this time being absent. He asked them if they all felt it was the type of facility needed in Vail to which they all answered yes. He asked if this was the type of facility lacking in Vail, and they all answered yes. Then to George Knox, Jr., he asked why he felt this way, and • his reply was that Vail was interested in the tourist more than the local and the people must have a variety of places to go and the Casino is one of the focal points in Town. When asked if there would be only one place to go for entertainment, Knox answered that the Out Back had been open and the Nu Gnu, but the Nu Gnu was too loud. Brown asked if any of these places had ever been overcrowded and Knox answered yes. Warren Klug, who has been in Vail since January of this year, felt there was a definite need for this type of facility and when asked ifhe has ever had to wait in line for food or bar service, his reply was yes. Nona Wilke was in general agreement with what Knox and Klug had said. Ferguson then asked Miss Wilke ifthere weren't some form of entertainment in other places in Vail, and she answered yes. Then he asked her if the waiting problem was probably confined to certain restaurants. She answered yes. When Ferguson asked what the younger group would do for entertainment, it was answered that Golden Peak was supplying teenage facilities, the Keg would still be open, and the Deli served 3.2 beer. It was also agreed that the 18- 21 year olds were not the only people frequenting the Casino under their 3.2 beer license, but some older people enjoyed it too. At this point, the applicant rests. .0 John Ferguson, attorney for the Protestants stood and presented a document -- a map put out by the VRA showing present liquor outlets in the Town of Vail, which was entered into evidence after no objections, as Protestants' exhibit I. Harry Franzgen was then called to the stand and asked if he were in favor or opposed to the granting of this license, to which he answered opposed. He felt the needs of the neighborhood are not here for a dance club. He has been here since the winter of 1965 and has worked for the Lodge; he helped open the Lord Gore Club, worked for Cramerus, Inc., La Cave, The Out Back in the Vail Vil- lage Inn. Ferguson asked, if some of these facilities have failed, doesn't it tell them that a need is not there? He was asked if the Golden Ski had attempted adult -type entertainment and his ans- wer was yes, it was abandoned when Vail Associates sold the place to the Broadmoor; and when they tried it, the entertainment lasted only one and a half months. The Out Back gave up because it wasn't feasible. The Red Ram went broke. Ferguson asked Franzgen if he felt there were a need for any more bar -restaurants in this neigh- borhood, and his reply was no. Ferguson at this time entered a petition against the granting of this license, which was labeled as Protestants exhibit 2. Stewart Brown then questioned this wit- ness and asked what Franzgen's interest in the Ni Gnu is. He said he was owner and president, holding 50 percent of the stock; David McIivaine held the other 50 percent. Brown asked when the Red Ran was open and Franzgen replied that it closed about fall of 1970. Brown asked how many people it held and Franzgen's reply was 130. Brown asked where it was located and was told where the Left Bank is now. He then asked if Franzgen knew why it closed, and he said it ran out of funds. Brown asked the same questions of the Golden Ski and Franzgen answered that they had also run out of money. When asked why the Out Back went out of business, Franzgen answered that it wasn't feasible. Brown asked if Franzgen had examined these figures and could state this as fact. Franzgen replied that he had been working with some of the figures and the entertainment costs were too high. Brown then asked how many people the Out Back could seat and he answered 150 at the most. Golden Ski could seat 100 or more, which is one half the size of Casino Vail. Brown asked if both the Out Back and the Golden Ski were removed from the main inter section of Town and was answered yes. Brown then asked if some of the reasons why these places went out of business might be„unknown to Franzgen, and he answered yes. He asked Franzgen if he were to choose a good location for a facility of this type, where would he go. Franzgen said he didn't know. Brown then asked if it were true that Franzgen had offered to buy Casino Vail, to which he answered yes. Pepi Gramshammer was then called to the stand by John Ferguson and after stating his name and his address as Vail, he said he presently holds a three-way liquor license and serves meals and drinks and is not in favor of the granting of this license. He feels the neighborhood is well served. He said that the Casino had held their 3-way license for three years and just last year gave it up. He understood that when that one was given up, it was given to Bobby Mac's instead. Another license, he said, was issued at the same time. He further understood that no one was to be given a liquor license until the survey had been finished. Ferguson asked if the noise at the Casino bothered him. Pepi ans- wered that it had been a problem for eight years, to the point that people had checked out of his hotel. He said that he had heard last year at the hearing where the Casino Vail had been granted a 3.2 beer license that they would control the noise, which then turned into the biggest noise ever. He gets complaints all the time. Ferguson showed him a petition and asked if he had circulated it_ He answered yes, and the petition was entered as protestants Ex- hibit 3. Ferguson asked if there were seasonal variations in his business. Pepi answered that in the winter he does quite well, but • that it was hard to make all the payments in the summer. He said that 30 business could not pay t :ir VRA dues this year. His lodge was only about 10 percent full in the summer and his res- taurant from 20 percent to 70 percent at the highest, and that he felt this true in all the restaurants in Vail. Gunther Hofler was then called forth as a witness for the opposi- tion and stated that he was not representing the Red Lion. In 1964 he had been the manager of the Casino. When asked if he had circulated the petition he was shown, he answered yes, and this was entered as Protestants exhibit 4. Ferguson asked him if he felt the community needed any more restaurants or bars. He said he felt that we need a night club but that it won't stay as a night club. The Casino should keep its 3.2 beer license and serve the 18-21 year olds. Ferguson asked him why he felt it might not remain as a night club and he answered that it wasn't feasible. He then stated that when he was running the Casino, there were only 200 seats, so how can there now be 375? He further stated that there would be a problem with minors if the Casino abandoned their 3.2 beer license; then, that there is more entertainment now than in 1964- 65 when he managed the Casino, and they tried every kind of entertainment and nothing worked. Ferguson asked how many en- tertainment facilities should be granted liquor licenses, and he said one was enough, When asked about the noise factor, Hofler stated that he wouldn't live near it, and that he is in favor of a less noisy night club. He thinks that the Boulder code of not renewing licenses if the people don't follow through on their original plans is a smart system. Gramshammer then stated that he felt there are enough restaurants now; he always has problems pay- ing his bills; he is not against competition; but the Board of Trustees should draw the line on whether we need it_ The Lord Gore Club and Bobby Mac's received their licenses. There are 14 liquor licenses in a small area of Town, which concentrates too many things in one place. In that same area are two wine and beer and three 3.2 beer licenses. It's noisy all around him, and he wants it to be quiet. Trustee Donovan stated that last year the noise from the Casino was worse than ever and that he wonders if Pepi doesn't think it might get better, to which Pepi answered that at least with the 3.2. beer license they were home by midnight. He would prefer a 3.2. beer license to a 3-way license. Sheika Gramshammer was then brought forth as a witness and sworn in. She stated that she was opposed to the granting of this license but was not against having a night club. However, she thinks the Casino will not stay in business. This Town is dead by midnight, and he won't be able to operate just between the hours of 8:30 p.m. and 1:30 a.m. and make enough money to continue the business. She had phoned the Red Onion in Aspen, and they said the only way they could stay open was to make a lot of money on food. He therefore must serve food to make it_ She is against the granting of this license because there is no guarantee they will stay a night club, and because it will be impossible for them to operate. Stewart Brown then questioned Sheika that since she is generally in favor of a night club and if it were run by good people and if it were possible for them to open a night club and keep it that way, would she have any objections. She said yes, she wouldn't be able to sleep at nights. What if the noise were eliminated? She said it wouldn't be; the Casino was too big; and it couldn't op- erate in Vail. This was the end of the testimony both for and against the applica- tion of K & R Casino. Stewart Brown was asked to give his summarizing statements. He said that in one sense, this evening's hearing was different, as this is the first time that a license applicant has come before the Board with an entertainment need. He feels Mr. Ferguson will • show that a liquor license is not needed, but according to the "unquenched thirst" law, a liquor license is needed. Also, a specialized need or a proof of a need for this type of facility is proof of a need for a liquor license. W must, under the statutes, stay away from the feasibility of a proposed operation. John Ferguson, in his summarizing statements, said that there was a great deal of testimony tonight, a lot of it quite irrelevant because the applicant had based his entire need on a certain type of facility. The statutes call for no limitation on how they use the license, the noise etc. There is no alternative but to go back to a general restaurant. l*,b restaurant facility is needed, according to any evidence. The licensing authority must be satis- fied that the needs of the neighborhood are not met. The survey says that the needs of the community are being served according to 60-75%of those questioned. He would like the Board to consider the report, as it is a much more reliable guide in determining the needs of the neighborhood, etc., than anything else that was presented. The applicant was then told that he would receive a written de- cision of the Board within 30 days of this hearing. x ,Y $4 ,Y A $4 u s! A The Local Liquor Licensing Authority considered the application of SHE Productions, a partnership for a Beer Wine and Spirituous Liquor License, whose partnership consists of A. Thomas Leroy and Van S. Fulton. The Mayor asked the Town Clerk if all required information and fees had been supplied and paid by the applicant. Terry Minger, Town Clerk, answered yes. The Mayor then asked the Town Attorney if he had reviewed the application and if it was properly filled out in compliance with the Colorado Statutes. Larry Robinson, Town Attorney, answered yes. The Mayor passed around the application for review of the Board and asked if there were any questions. There were no questions concerning the appli- cation at this time. Mr. Robinson then stated that his report from the Chief of Police indicated that the applicants and premises involved were of good standing. When asked if any petitions or letters had been filed, Larry Robinson presented numerous letters which had been received by the Town Office and asked that these letters be admitted at this time and included in the record. John Ferguson questioned these letters as he had not seen them before. They were then introduced as evidence. John Ferguson stated that he is representing the same people in this hearing as in the K & R Casino hearing, with the exception of the Ore House. Mayor Dobson then said the purpose of this hearing is to comply with the requirements of C.R.S. 1963 75-2-42 (2) and acknowledged • the paragraph without reading it_ He then declared the hearing open. The attorney for the applicant was Douglas McLaughlin, Vail. He asked to admit his petitions for the granting of the license without testimony if it were agreeable to John Ferguson. McLaughlin had three, which were entered into evidence, and four were presented by Mr. Ferguson. All signatures for the SHE Productions had been obtained in the Town of Vail from visitors as well as residents. There were 150 from Vail residents; 97 names which are both Vail residents and visitors and another with 24, which contains both visitors and locals. At this time, Mr. McLaughlin asked that the following people stand as called and be sworn i n : Tam Leroy, Van Fulton, Mrs. Leroy, Mark Lindfest, John Purcell, Dennis Broadley, Bill Jennings, Frank Earle, Jim Collins, Marcia McKerr, Richard McKerr, Dr. Steven Meyer, Harlan Chaote, Janet Kemp, William McIlhaney, William Kramer, Jim Rogers, Rolf Stepperud, and David Nott. These people were all sworn in by T. J. Minger, . Town Clerk. McLaughlin asked that the testimonies from the K r; R Casino hear- ing of George Knox, Jr., Nona Wilke and Warren Klug be admitted into this hearing, to which John Ferguson replied that the entire record should then be included. McLaughlin stated he didn't feel that was fair because he had not had the opportunity to cross- examine them, and he withdrew his original motion. Tom Leroy was called to the stand and stated that he had lived in Vail over a year. He is presently a marketing consultant for several ski manufacturers. He is a High School graduate, with 3 k years of college. He has a degree in design from a two-year college. He is married; has never been convicted of a felony. He has no financial interest in any liquor outlet. McLaughlin asked him if he had entered into a business relationship and he answered yes, a partnership with Mr. Van Fulton. They have each put in $10,000 and are prepared to invest a total of $25,000 each. He was asked what his services would be in the partnership and he replied that he would be a worker within the establishment. When asked if he had had any experience in liquor establishments, he answered no. McLaughlin then asked him if he had any management experience, and he answered yes, representing ski companies. McLaughlin asked him if he had done a study with regard to disco- teques and he answered yes, that while traveling as a skier, he had studied Vail as a possible business opportunity and found that • night-time entertainment here was aimed at a specific group, not a general group. He was then asked if he had had an occasion to go to a library and the answer was yes, the Colorado University library and the City of Boulder Public Library, where he read many reports and magazines. He was asked to define the neighbor- hood he would be serving. When Leroy answered the Gore Valley, McLaughlin asked why and the reply was that they could set needs through music and entertainment. When asked what the operation would be, McLaughlin introduced Exhibit C, which is a drawing showing the interior of the facility. The petitions for the granting of this license were at this time marked D and introduced as evidence. McLaughlin requested Leroy to begin by defining discotheque, which he defined as a place where people patronize to dance to recorded music. There is no live entertainment. He described his sound system as a ten -inch reel of tapes playing between four and six hours recorded by an F.M. station in Boulder or Denver. They would play all types of music and would be using four Carnegie speakers for quadraphonic sounds. It would produce good sound instead of loud noises. McLaughlin asked if this particular building had any open windows and Leroy answered that it w i 1 1 have windows that w i 11 be open -- open in the summer and closed in the winter -- or an exhaust fan, which would project the sound out to the Creek and to the new pond. McLaughlin asked him if ac- cording to the terms of his lease agreement, did he have the final control over the volume of the music. He said no, Chuck Rosenquist his landlord could come in at any time and turn down the volume. But he said the loudness can be controlled. When asked to describe the decor, Leroy said it would have an intimate atmosphere and people would be dancing on glass lights. The entire interior will be black and white. McLaughlin asked why they had chosen the name SHE Productions, and Leroy said that they liked it because it doesn't sound like a night club and they wanted it to be a place where single girls and women would like to come; they want to cater to women and their ways. His hours will be 8:30 p.m, to 2:00 a.m., and the only food that is to be served is fondue. They will have four to five items, mainly fish. Their kitchen is small. There is a provision in his lease which gives Chuck Rosenquist final rule according to menu and sound. When asked ifhe had the right to present possession, Leroy replied yes. Exhibit C was then referred to. Mr. Ferguson asked Leroy to clarify the drawing and location in relation to Bobby Mac's. He said that the front half is under Bobby Mac's deck, but the back half is under their dining room. 8 The length of the room is 46 feet. The building is now complete to the post; the back half is presently underground parking. The windows are in the front of the building. The air w i l l come in from the back and out through the front. New construction is called for, and they have not designed where the windows are going to be, but they w i 1 1 comply with the laws of the Town. Ferguson read a portion from the C.R.S. which requires complete plans to be filed at the time of application -- an architectural drawing. McLaughlin said there are architectural plans of the building. The final plans have been drawn up for Mr. Struble, Vail's building inspector. Ferguson asked for ventilation plans and McLaughlin says they w i 1 1 be filed before the Board makes their decision. Pepi Gramshammer wanted the plans in the file. Mayor Dobson stated that the Board w i 11 take notice of Ferguson's objections and would return to the applicant's testimony. McLaughlin asked Leroy to describe the interior changes and he said that the back half will be made out of the present parking lot; therefore, three and a half walls will have to be changed, Leroy was then asked if he had ever been in the Nu Gnu and he replied yes, and his establish- ment w i l I in no way be like it except there w i 1 1 be drinking and dancing -- no rock and roll. McLaughlin then asked him if he had talked with visitors to Vail, and he answered yes, they have ex- pressed, regarding the availability of entertainment to Vail, the need for more night time activities -- there were not enough places to go, and they were all too loud. He would cater to the age group from 21- 65, mostly from 28- 30. According to a survey he had read the average age of people coming to Vail is 29. McLaughlin asked him if he had experienced any difference in the past with crowds, and he answered yes. He would ask for no cover charge. When asked if he would compete with the Nu Gnu or other establishments in Vail, Leroy replied they would be giving the people entertainment. McLaughlin then asked if he felt there was another facility in Vail adequately serving the needs that he hoped to supply. Leroy an- swered no, there was no discotheque. At this time, a magazine ad was presented as Exhibit B, showing that TWA was advertising in many travel magazines etc., that there is a discotheque in Vail; he further said that this was a part of TWA's 1.3 million dollar campaign, which ad w i 11 probably be seen by any potential skier and every skier. Another article, presented and introduced as Exhibit A tells of the "Aspen Look" and a place called Frederico's "where the actions at." These articles helped him to make up his mind about starting a disco in Vail. Leroy was then asked if there had been any disco facilities in the Town up until now, and he answered no; there was live entertainment and recordings used between bands. When asked if he were offering a particular type of entertainment, he answered yes, plus selling alcoholic liquor. When asked if he thought the Town needed another restaurant, he replied that ifthe people want them, the good ones would stay and the bad ones would go. Asked again if he thought the Town needed another restaurant, he replied no. Then Ferguson asked him ifhe were having just the minimum food as required by law, and Leroy's reply was yes. He was asked if he had heard K > R Casino's hearing and he replied yes. Ferguson then asked if he were appealing to the same age group and he said yes, he is cat- ering to adults. He was then asked if he felt there were room in Vail for both facilities and he said yes. When asked if he planned to operate year around, he replied that his lease called for ten months of the year operating time. In the summer, he would pos- sibly serve lunch and have a cocktail hour. when asked about the expenses of the tape, he said they are very expensive -- about $500 for a tape, and he would have about 20 tapes -- four hours long each; however, it wouldn't compare to the costs of live enter- tainment. He further said that the entire building would be sound- proofed. Ferguson then asked for the plans for sound -proofing and was told that it was the intention of the applicant to sound Aroof the ceilings and all the walls. At this point Robert McClure wanted to ask a question and McLaughlin said he objected to anyone's 9 asking questions who was being represented by Ferguson. It was decided that these individuals should be sworn in; then they could be cross-examined. Gunther Hofler said that he was not against a night club facility, but was opposed to their opening a restuarant as such. Robert McClure, the owner of Bobby Mac's, questioned Leroy as to what part of Bobby Mac's would the disco be under, and the answer was 28 feet of his dining room. He said that the condo- minium owners above him had tried to sell because of his soft dinner music, and he has two inches of concrete on his ceiling for soundproofing. McLaughlin objected to this type of question- ing as McClure had not been sworn in as a witness. But McClure went on to say he had heard they were going to have live enter- tainment -- a drummer playing along to the music. Van Fulton was called to the witness stand and stated that he is in between occupations; that he is 30 years old; that he is a partner with Tan Leroy 50-50; that he would be a manager - worker, in the partnership. When McLaughlin asked him if he had had experience in the restaurant business, he answered yes, he had tended bars and worked in restaurants. In 1965 he worked for Herman Dupre at Seven Springs; also the Mad Hatter Restaurant for one ski season. They did not have liquor facilities. He worked on the Virgin Islands and was in charge of the food and beverages, also a manager at Rockefeller Resort. Asked ifhe had ever worked with live entertainment, he said no. McLaughlin asked him how much square footage there would be, and he answered 1485, including restrooms and storage, or about 1200 feet usable space. He was then asked if he had talked to visitors in Vail. He said yes. He has been here three and a half months, and the visitors say there should be more than one place to go. McLaughlin asked him if he felt the needs of the neighborhood were being satisfied and he answered no. Fulton then said they might do dixieland music one night, blue grass another, etc. -- it would not go out of style. When asked if he thought existing facilities in Vail were meeting the needs, he said no. Sometimes there would be a good group and other times there wouldn't. There is not consistent good music in Vail. When McLaughlin asked if it would compete with other establishments in Vail, he answered it might take a little bit from everyone; but it might be catchy enough to bring people to Vail. His friends think Vail should have more night clubs. He said they could fit 94 people, but will be set up for only 80. John Ferguson questioned how the petitions that had been introduced were circulated, and Fulton answered that Leroy`s wife Gigi had gotten the names from residents and visitors to the Town of Vail, within the last two days. When Ferguson asked where she went, McLaughlin objected, saying the petitions had already been admitted. The question was answered by saying that Mrs. Leroy had gone house to cc� se and t o the Holiday Inn. Ferguson asked if prior to Fulton's 3a� sidency in Vail, had he been here, and he answered that he had ma a several visits to Vail. McLaughlin then called several witnesses en masse--the witnesses that had previously been sworn in. He explained that he was going to ask these people together some questions and they were to have either a positive or negative response, and he asked Ferguson if he had any objection. Ferguson answered no. McLaughlin then asked if'all had been present during the testimony and they all answered yes. He asked them, taking into consideration the testimony, do they feel the existing facilities fill the needs of Vail and they answered no. When he asked if they all felt this facility is needed, they all answered yes. McLaughlin then turned to Harlan Chaote, president of the Rotary Club. He was asked if he had conversations with visitors and he answered yes. McLaughlin 10 asked him if these people had expressed anything in regard to entertainment in Vail. Chaote answered that people have mentioned the need for more night-time activity and they say Aspen is where the action is and Vail is where the skiing is. Ferguson then questioned Chaote. He asked if people had mentioned the need for a disco, and were they talking about subteens, over 18, or what? Chaote said they were talking about adult -type entertainment. He then asked the group if the need they were referring to was based on this type of facility. They said yes. He asked if it was their contention that there is a need for additional restaurants, and they answered no. The case for the applicant was concluded Ferguson then introduced the map showing Vail Village and the number of alcoholic beverage outlets. McLaughlin had no objections. Ferguson then said he felt the survey should be included as evi- dence. McLaughlin objected on the grounds that it is unfair to enter this without questioning the person who compiled it_ Mayor Dobson said it would be admitted, with McLaughlin's comments noted and the Board would assess its validity. The following persons were called by John Ferguson and sworn in by T. J. Minger, Town Clerk: Pepi Gramshammer Harry Franzgen Sheika Gramshammer Robert McClure Robert McClure stated that he was owner and manager of Bobby Mac's in the Creekside Building. He stated that half of the disco would be under his dining facility. Ferguson asked if he was against or in favor of the granting of this license. He stated that he was against it, because he didn't know what was happening. He was going to be part of this operation until they couldn't get the space they wanted to get. He felt that the music coming up into the dining room could hurt his business. He said that he might know more than a lot of people since he was going to be a part of it_ He understood that there was to be a live drummer who would play along with the recorded music. When he signed his lease, it never went into his mind that there could be a disco or even com- mercial space underneath Bobby Mac's. Ferguson asked if there were bar facilities close by, and he answered yes, the Lancelot, Gasthof Gramshammer, Guido's, and the Left Bank -- they all center around the Creek. Ferguson asked if the disco could be put into an exist- ing facility in Vail, and McClure answered yes, but not in his. There is an eight -foot ceiling in his restaurant and the condo- minium owners are selling out because his music is too loud. Ferguson asked if Vail needed an additional three-way license at this time. He answered that he is not against anybody's doing his own thing; it is fine unless they step on someone else's toes. He doesn't know what the saturation point is; the Board is going to have to decide that. McLaughlin then asked McClure if this type of establishment would serve the needs of the neighborhood and he answered yes; he was involved in this until it was negotiated. McLaughlin asked him ifhe had now changed his mind. He said yes, since it was now affecting his restaurant. McLaughlin then asked him if assuming there would be no noise, would he be in favor of it, and he said that he couldn't assume that. Ferguson then questioned Franzgen, who opposes the granting of this license. He also understood there would be live entertain- ment, and is opposed to live entertainment. Ferguson asked if he felt there was any need for this type of facility, and he answered no. He asked him if he felt the needs of the neighbor- hood were already satisfied and he said yes. Ferguson asked if 11 there were record playing anywhere in Vail ever and if it worked out. Franzgen answered no. It was felt there was nothing re- markable about this operation that couldn't be put in an already existing facility. • Pepi Gramshammer was then brought forward and he was against the granting of this license because there are too many places in Town and everything is concentrated in the middle. He thinks we don't need it, and the noise factor annoys him very much. When asked if the neighborhood needs any three-way license at this time, Pepi answered no. Further, his guests objected to the noise and he has lost business. McLaughlin asked Pepi if his main objection was that of noise. Pepi answered that we have enough places now. The noise and everything else bother him. McLaughlin asked if he could really say this about this establishment as he didn't know if it would be noisy. Pepi said he was basing it on past experience. Sheika Gramshammer then took the stand and stated that she was against this for the same reasons as Pepi. Ferguson asked her if Vail needs another three-way license, and she answered no. When asked if the needs are being satisfied at the present time, she answered yes. She also stated that no new rooms had been built but that new liquor licenses had been granted. Also, that Leroy said he would serve lunch, which she is also against. She said there are other three-way licenses now pending -- six that she has heard about. Ferguson asked if that fact entered into her thinking in respect to the total picture and she answered yes; there are enough now. McLaughlin asked if noise was one of her main objections and she answered it was one of three, and was based on past experience. There is no quiet night club -- if it stays a night club. Ferguson asked if she thought we needed two night clubs and she answered no. Mayor Dobson asked for the final summaries. McLaughlin said that since the study was admitted into evidence, he was going to cite some of it. 57.75% of the conventioneers and 65.39% of all the people questioned felt they needed more entertainment facilities in Vail. There will be a considerable amount of growth in Vail for the next few years. When asked what particular types of eating and drinking places they would like, they answered ballroom, folk, jazz, disco, etc. The study by and • large directs itself to considerable problems in the Town of Vail, parking problems, etc. Pages 50 and 51 of the study said we don't need anymore licenses but more restaurants and the study contradicts itself. TWA advertises Vail as having disco. McLaughlin then stated there was no valid testimony against this disco. He had more signatures on the petitions for it than the opposition had against it. He said that Sheika's testimony was contradictory and she really has no objection except for the noise. He said the disco could never be a general purpose restaurant. Franzgen said he was filled in the summer and was saying that things like this failed because of costs of live entertainment. This place won't compete. It is an after dinner dancing entertainment facility, and is needed by the Town of Vail. It is going to be small. He then said he felt most of the people liked the idea of an entertainment facility in Vail but were worried that it wouldn't be kept that way. It is restricted by the lease to certain sound levels and if they are successful as a restaurant, wouldn't that prove that we need more restaurants? Ferguson in his closing statements said that the thing that distrubs him the most is the fact that we are bein34 asked to buy a well- intentioned bili of goods without any restrictions or guarantee 12 assuring that this is the way it is going to be. The noise problem has also been brought up. The criteria for determination of the Board of Trustees is not noise, but whether the needs of the neigh- borhood are being fulfilled. To speculate on noise is silly be- cause night clubs are noisy. The question for this group is the needs of the neighborhood and the desires of its inhabitants. There were more petitions in favor than against. Mrs. Leroy is a very attractive young lady -- it is much easier to sign something in favor than it is to get something against it. The requirements have been satisfied with regard to three-way licenses. The enter- tainment feature is widely recognized because of surveys etc. En- tertainment is needed, but those who have tried have not succeeded. People don't support it when it is there. He doesn't think the disco offers anything unique at all. Any other night club facility could offer it. They are asking for a three-way liquor license, without limitation. For the record, he has serious question about the adequacy of the plans for the type of facility, thinking it doesn't go with the statute. Legality of the applicant's statement. He wonders about saloons, and questions the right to serve a minimum of food. This hearing is over. The applicants were told they would receive written notification within 30 days. The meeting was adjourned at 1:40 a.m. Town ler nn • • 13 MINUTES SPECIAL MEETING BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE TOWN OF VAIL SEPTEMBER 22, 1971 A special meeting of the Board of Trustees of the Town of Vail was convened at the hour of 10:00 o'clock a.m., September 22, 1971, at the RamsHorn Lodge, Vail, Colorado. Mayor John A. Dobson and the following trustees were present: Trustee Clayton Freeman Trustee Tod Anderson Trustee Dr. Thomas Steinberg Trustee John Donovan Trustee Gerry White Also present were: Terrell Minger, Town Manager Larry Robinson, Town Attorney The Mayor acting as chairman declared that a quorum was present and called the meeting to order. The chairman advised the Board that the meeting was convened from the adjournment of the meeting heard August 23, 1971, sitting for the Local Liquor Licensing Authority, to consider the liquor license application filed with the Town by Rumford -Nottingham Enterprises. The Board reviewed the minutes of the liquor license hearing held on August 23, 1971, and considered the testimony and various documentary exhibits presented at the hearing, together with the "Review of Liquor Licenses and Town Profile" prepared by THK Associates, Inc., at the request of the Town of Vail. The Board had previously advised the Town Manager, Terrell Minger, to attempt to obtain additional information from the applicant for the reason that the Board had considered the evidence presented at the hearing of August 23, 1971, grossly inadequate to substantiate the need for an additional restaurant type liquor outlet in the neighborhood defined as the Town of Vail and the immediate vicinity. Mr. Minger reported to the Board that the applicant was not able to supply very much ad- ditional information that would enable the Board to better comprehend the type of establishment proposed by the applicant; however, he did obtain some information relating to the decor of the facility and a general notion relating to the proposed menu of the restaurant. The Board considered this additional information. The Board considered, by way of taking administrative notice, the contents of the liquor license review prepared by THK Associates Inc., and specifically noted that there were ap- proximately 23 outlets in the immediate area. The Board also noted the fact that one conclusion of the survey was that the neighborhood already had sufficient outlets of the general character proposed by the applicant. Mr. Donovan raised the question of whether or not the lodge guests would constitute a factor relating to the needs of the neighborhood. Although the number of guests staying at the Talisman might find it convenient to have a restaurant in the building, the size of the lodge and condominium spaces would not adequately constitute sufficient business to justify the restaurant. Mr. White indicated that he thought the lodge guest created a demand for such a facility; however, it was acknowledged by the Board that there are an ample number Of similar outlets available in the neighborhood.